Brainwashing children into Agnosticism and Atheism... ( reply to alt.agnosticism )

[old man joe]

first, to set the record straight... what the world sees on TV that is passed off for
Christianity is by and large, hogwash. its nothing more than fast talking multi-millions
with the gift of gab psychologically manipulating large crowds into filling the collection
trays with their life savings... under the pretense that they're doing " God's work. "

also, the idea that " God loves everybody " and is desperately wanting unbelievers to
" accept Jesus " is hogwash. direct statements from God Himself to His prophets as
recorded in the Bible declare without apology that God hates the wicked as well as their
ways... you can look that up in your own Bibles in Ps. 5:4-6.

no one accepts Jesus Christ unto salvation except if God has recorded that person in His
Book of Life which was completed before Creation. its just a matter of history passing by
that He calls those whom He's chosen to be the heirs of the salvation purchased by Christ.

Jesus Christ did not pay the penalty of the sins of all mankind... it is this idea from
which the TV Evangelists foundation their stage acts. if they can manipulate one into
thinking God is going to fix all of ones troubles by telling them Christ paid the penalty
of their sins if only they would believe, then the hootin' and hollerin' life style these
Fundamentalists think is salvation can be yours, too.

the fact that Jesus Christ did not pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world is
evidenced throughout the Bible. for example, only eight persons were saved from the Flood
while uncounted hundreds of thousands were not. and for the record, it was determined by
God a hundred years before the Flood that all but these eight persons would be saved...
the rest were determined by God not to be saved.

these Fundamentalists try to brainwash people into thinking Christ died for these, too,
which makes God a punisher of the good and the bad.

getting back to matters... its not necessary to ' brainwash ' someone into being a child
of God. it is entirely God's doing that He is found of those who do not seek Him.
salvation belongs to the Lord.
Ps. 3:8

in like manner, as some poster demonstrates, he is turned off by all the hoopla these
professional religionist types make concerning their presentation of what they think
salvation and Christianity is all about. rightly so. but his idea doesn't take into
account that why teach children the laws of the land; acceptable social behavior; or even
right from wrong. in other words, you are brainwashed if you're being taught the God of
the Bible but you're not brainwashed if you are taught Agnosticism. duh.

throughout the millennia of time it took to write the Bible there has been but an
extremely limited number of people who were ever brought to salvation by God causing them
to be saved. these are so extremely conservative you'll be hard pressed to find one on
TV. you will not see a statue of Mary on their lawn; they do not speak in tongues; they
find that rock and roll music and Jesus do not mix; they do not go door to door saying God
desperately wants you to be saved since He die for your sins...

that idea teaches others that Christ failed at Calvary since many more will go to
Judgement then will ever be counted... how can you stand in Judgement if your sins are
forgiven and forgotten ?

quite simply, if your name is not written in the Book of Life you will never be saved...
God says so, not me. Rev. 20:12

[p***@hotmail.com]

On Nov 8, 7:45 pm, old man joe <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip crap

ROFLMAO!

Children are born without *any* concept of the supernatural. The only
reason religions exist is because the parents share their ancient
fairy tales with the child at the same time they're teaching them not
to cross the street without looking or teaching them not to stick a
metal fork into an electrical outlet.

The only "brainwashing" being done is by theistic idiots who don't
understand how much harm that shit will do to their children.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain

Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[Nosterill]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
snip crap
ROFLMAO!
Children are born without *any* concept of the supernatural. The only
reason religions exist is because the parents share their ancient
fairy tales with the child at the same time they're teaching them not
to cross the street without looking or teaching them not to stick a
metal fork into an electrical outlet.
The only "brainwashing" being done is by theistic idiots who don't
understand how much harm that shit will do to their children.

There's a simple enough experiment to be conducted here: Just raise
children, from birth, without telling them anything at all about any
gods - and that includes the negative i.e. do not tell them that there
are no gods either. Leave a blank slate, godwise, and see what
happens. Will they grow up spontaneously believing in the "One True
God" who may, or may not, coincide with any of the established
religions? Taking a limited sample of two (my sons) - the result is a
very uncomplicated form of atheism and the only religious advice that
I had to give them, as they grew older, was to learn the respect and
good manners not to laugh openly at people who did believe in gods.

[Sulfate]

Post by Nosterill
There's a simple enough experiment to be conducted here: Just raise
children, from birth, without telling them anything at all about any
gods - and that includes the negative i.e. do not tell them that there
are no gods either. Leave a blank slate, godwise, and see what
happens. Will they grow up spontaneously believing in the "One True
God" who may, or may not, coincide with any of the established
religions? Taking a limited sample of  two (my sons) - the result is a
very uncomplicated form of atheism and the only religious advice that
I had to give them, as they grew older, was to learn the respect and
good manners not to laugh openly at people who did believe in gods.

I'm practicing that, to some degree. My daughter is nine, and I've
never given her an indoctrination in any type of religion or non-
religion. When she was old enough to ask about death, I explained the
general beliefs that people have, both atheist and religious. I sat
down with her and taught her the basic precepts of Christianity,
Islam, and atheism, and that when she was older I'd talk to her about
what her mother and I believed. (We're both atheists.) I did my best
to make it clear that there were dozens of different religions
practicing actively, and that you absolutely couldn't discriminate
towards them for any reason.

She's developed a general form of Christianity, I think. She
passively believes in a god, that he's not a complete bastard, and
that you go to Heaven after you die. I think it's largely due to the
effect of American media, which is very preoccupied with the
afterlife. When she was born I'd hoped that she'd look at the same
information and reach the same conclusions as I did (although I was
much older than she), but as she grows up, I realized how comforting
it must be for a kid to think they'd meet their kitty and great-
grandpa when they died. I also started to realize that I didn't care
*what* she believed (as long as she was polite about it), but I
suppose that's inconsequential.

Pardon the preamble. From my experiences, I'd go so far as to say
that while children aren't born with any concept of theism, they
develop it fairly quickly even when not exposed to it by their
parents. (Media, grandparents, etc.) When they start asking
themselves hard questions, they tend to go with the answers that
provide the most reassurance that the world is predictable and
friendly. I'll be interested to see what she thinks as she gets older
and doesn't have the same needs influencing her ideas, but in the
meantime I'll be happy as long as she doesn't turn out like the
pigfaced theists you see so often in a.a.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Nosterill
There's a simple enough experiment to be conducted here: Just raise
children, from birth, without telling them anything at all about any
gods - and that includes the negative i.e. do not tell them that there
are no gods either. Leave a blank slate, godwise, and see what
happens. Will they grow up spontaneously believing in the "One True
God" who may, or may not, coincide with any of the established
religions? Taking a limited sample of  two (my sons) - the result is a
very uncomplicated form of atheism and the only religious advice that
I had to give them, as they grew older, was to learn the respect and
good manners not to laugh openly at people who did believe in gods.

I'm practicing that, to some degree.  My daughter is nine, and I've
never given her an indoctrination in any type of religion or non-
religion.  When she was old enough to ask about death, I explained the
general beliefs that people have, both atheist and religious.  I sat
down with her and taught her the basic precepts of Christianity,
Islam, and atheism, and that when she was older I'd talk to her about
what her mother and I believed.  (We're both atheists.)  I did my best
to make it clear that there were dozens of different religions
practicing actively, and that you absolutely couldn't discriminate
towards them for any reason.
She's developed a general form of Christianity, I think.  She
passively believes in a god, that he's not a complete bastard, and
that you go to Heaven after you die.  I think it's largely due to the
effect of American media, which is very preoccupied with the
afterlife.  When she was born I'd hoped that she'd look at the same
information and reach the same conclusions as I did (although I was
much older than she), but as she grows up, I realized how comforting
it must be for a kid to think they'd meet their kitty and great-
grandpa when they died.  I also started to realize that I didn't care
*what* she believed (as long as she was polite about it), but I
suppose that's inconsequential.
Pardon the preamble.  From my experiences, I'd go so far as to say
that while children aren't born with any concept of theism, they
develop it fairly quickly even when not exposed to it by their
parents.  (Media, grandparents, etc.)  When they start asking
themselves hard questions, they tend to go with the answers that
provide the most reassurance that the world is predictable and
friendly.  I'll be interested to see what she thinks as she gets older
and doesn't have the same needs influencing her ideas, but in the
meantime I'll be happy as long as she doesn't turn out like the
pigfaced theists you see so often in a.a.

I wonder if this phenomenon is behind the stories you see of atheists
"converting" to one mythology or another in Europe (such stories are
popular with Muslims, for some reason). I think it's much more common
to be raised in some kind of "theological vacuum" there than it is in
the US. The religious presence is so strong in my society that there's
not much chance of being able to raise a child without them being
exposed to theism in some way. From the time she was six, I just
explained the basic premises of any religion she'd been exposed to `on
the street'. She also found the concept of an afterlife appealing, but
considered the various religious stories as rather silly. At the
moment (she's 18), she seems to be some sort of vague deistic
agnostic, but with a *very* apathetic streak. She doesn't believe the
subject's worthy of discussion..and also thinks there's *definitely*
no place for public theism.

She does seem to have a mild disdain for Christianity..a few of her
friends are the children of fundamentalists, and she really resents
how miserable their home lives were.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!

[Nosterill]

Post by Nosterill
There's a simple enough experiment to be conducted here: Just raise
children, from birth, without telling them anything at all about any
gods - and that includes the negative i.e. do not tell them that there
are no gods either. Leave a blank slate, godwise, and see what
happens. Will they grow up spontaneously believing in the "One True
God" who may, or may not, coincide with any of the established
religions? Taking a limited sample of  two (my sons) - the result is a
very uncomplicated form of atheism and the only religious advice that
I had to give them, as they grew older, was to learn the respect and
good manners not to laugh openly at people who did believe in gods.

I'm practicing that, to some degree.  My daughter is nine, and I've
never given her an indoctrination in any type of religion or non-
religion.  When she was old enough to ask about death, I explained the
general beliefs that people have, both atheist and religious.  I sat
down with her and taught her the basic precepts of Christianity,
Islam, and atheism, and that when she was older I'd talk to her about
what her mother and I believed.  (We're both atheists.)  I did my best
to make it clear that there were dozens of different religions
practicing actively, and that you absolutely couldn't discriminate
towards them for any reason.
She's developed a general form of Christianity, I think.  She
passively believes in a god, that he's not a complete bastard, and
that you go to Heaven after you die.  I think it's largely due to the
effect of American media, which is very preoccupied with the
afterlife.  When she was born I'd hoped that she'd look at the same
information and reach the same conclusions as I did (although I was
much older than she), but as she grows up, I realized how comforting
it must be for a kid to think they'd meet their kitty and great-
grandpa when they died.  I also started to realize that I didn't care
*what* she believed (as long as she was polite about it), but I
suppose that's inconsequential.
Pardon the preamble.  From my experiences, I'd go so far as to say
that while children aren't born with any concept of theism, they
develop it fairly quickly even when not exposed to it by their
parents.  (Media, grandparents, etc.)  When they start asking
themselves hard questions, they tend to go with the answers that
provide the most reassurance that the world is predictable and
friendly.  I'll be interested to see what she thinks as she gets older
and doesn't have the same needs influencing her ideas, but in the
meantime I'll be happy as long as she doesn't turn out like the
pigfaced theists you see so often in a.a.

I'm wondering if the main difference between your experience and mine
is due to location: I'm a Brit and broadcasting here is overwhelmingly
secular. You have to seek out religion in the media here. The
universal miasma of Christianity in the USA probably makes a lot of
difference. having said that - there are a significant proportion of
people who do seem to have a fundamental need to believe in something
- _anything_ - beyond harsh reality. That doesn't always manifest
itself as religion and can equally lead to UFology, conspiracy
theories, past lives or any of the other stuff that JREF is dedicated
to debunking.

You are to be congratulated on having made a noble attempt at the
ideal "faith neutral" upbringing. That was what I aimed for but, in
secular Europe, the default result tends to be atheism.

[Sulfate]

Post by Nosterill
I'm wondering if the main difference between your experience and mine
is due to location: I'm a Brit and broadcasting here is overwhelmingly
secular. You have to seek out religion in the media here. The
universal miasma of Christianity in the USA probably makes a lot of
difference. having said that - there are a significant proportion of
people who do seem to have a fundamental need to believe in something
- _anything_ - beyond harsh reality. That doesn't always manifest
itself as religion and can equally lead to UFology, conspiracy
theories, past lives or any of the other stuff that JREF is dedicated
to debunking.

What you may find interesting is that I'm actually Canadian. The vast
majority of our television, radio, and Internet consumption is based
out of the States, so while the nationality may be different, I think
your point remains valid. While we don't have the public displays of
theism that the United States does, similar media consumption likely
correlates similar results.

Post by Nosterill
You are to be congratulated on having made a noble attempt at the
ideal "faith neutral" upbringing. That was what I aimed for but, in
secular Europe, the default result tends to be atheism.

I do appreciate that, and it's intriguing that your similar behavior
netted a different result. I wasn't old enough to understand the
subject when I lived in England, but I certainly have no memories of
the society being proactively theist. I'll have to bring that up to
my parents some time, as they were in their forties during our time in
Bodmin and can likely broaden my perspective.

[Jimbo]

Post by Nosterill
I'm wondering if the main difference between your experience and mine
is due to location: I'm a Brit and broadcasting here is overwhelmingly
secular. You have to seek out religion in the media here. The
universal miasma of Christianity in the USA probably makes a lot of
difference. having said that - there are a significant proportion of
people who do seem to have a fundamental need to believe in something
- _anything_ - beyond harsh reality. That doesn't always manifest
itself as religion and can equally lead to UFology, conspiracy
theories, past lives or any of the other stuff that JREF is dedicated
to debunking.

What you may find interesting is that I'm actually Canadian.  The vast
majority of our television, radio, and Internet consumption is based
out of the States,

That's disappointing. :D